Uraeus* Mom, where do babies come from?
Me* Is this a conversation about sex?
Uraeus* No, like, before that, where are the babies?
Me* Well, different people believe different things.
Uraeus* What do you believe?
Me* I believe that babies start off in heaven. They are with God and the angels and they are choosing their parents.
(silence. silence)
Uraeus* That's interesting. I don't believe that. But that is interesting.
Wednesday, January 25, 2012
Me with Daniel (conversation with a prison nurse) 7-29-09
Daniel is a nurse who has been in the mental health field for ten years. I was acquainted with him, via phone, by another nurse who worked at the Union City Jail with him. He has worked at two jails and three prisons.
D* I did some part time work for two months at the Fulton County Jail in the mid ‘90’s, maybe ‘94. I needed the extra cash but later I told them, “Don’t call me, I’ll call you”. I knew it was a matter of time before the inmates were going to sue the county and win. And a few years later they did sue them.
J* What were some of your experiences?
D* Officers would wander off from nurses. They are supposed to be by you. Inmates were wild there. I was routinely having inmates coming on to me sexually. More men than women. The building was about five years old but on the inside it looked like it was fifty years old. It was so battered and poorly maintained. The doors weren’t secure, windows were broken. The officers were fairly indifferent and out of shape. They couldn’t have picked up a gun if they dropped it on the floor.
The building didn’t feel like circulation was very good. The inmates were getting TB but not really being cared for.
J* This was at Fulton County?
D* Yes. Some years later, in ‘96 perhaps, I worked for a couple of months at Metro State Prison. Metro is not too bad. It’s a medium sized facility with about 740 beds or something. Fairly compact, laid out. It was a pretty well run place from the security standpoint.
J* What would I be surprised at?
D* How many health problems there are. Metro was a woman’s diagnostic facility. All women who went to prison went to Metro first. Roughly 400 were on medication routinely. Inmates tend not to be a healthy population.
There were hardly any inpatient beds. You had all these people released with mental health cases with no safety nets.
The prison industry is now the largest in mental health service.
D* If you show any discomfort about being there, the inmates will eat you alive. Things are better for the medical staff than the officers. The officers are treated as the enemy. The inmates usually know that the medical staff is there to help them. I only had a few inmates give me trouble.
J* Did any of the inmates get clingy with you?
D* Not really. Being tough is very important.
J* Why did you leave corrections?
D* I needed a break from the inmates.
I remember there was one inmate in the hole who had killed an officer. Some days he was fairly outgoing and would recite his terrible poetry and rap to me. I would just listen and say, “Thank you for sharing that.”
J* Were you ever alone with him?
D* Oh noooo. These people can be locked down super securely. There was always an officer present.
There is a super max prison that was being built, and this guy, the terrible rapper, he was in line to go there. No, I was never alone with them. The CERT team handled him when he was out of his cell. He would be in chains from the waist down even to go to the shower.
If he was in a good mood, then he might be OK, but if he wasn’t, he flipped. Once I asked how he was doing and he went off. “How the fuck do you think I am! I’m on death row! I’ll kill you!” He was seriously unstable. Back in the ‘50’s he probably would have been committed to a mental hospital and been there for life.
Another guy on death row was a guy who had gotten a lot of attention in the news. He had killed a lot of people in one day. He used to scare some of the staff by speaking in these demon voices.
(laughs) There was one guy, he was on death row too. He honestly believed that he had a pick up truck outside the prison and that he had a job at night at a gold coin plant. He would get angry with the guards because they would make him late for work.
J* Are the death row inmates and general population inmates ever connected?
D* No. I mean, if there is a death row inmate who is in the hole, then he might be able to hear someone in general population from another cell. Death row has their own section. There is extra tight security there. In some ways, there is a little better accommodations. They are more heavily staffed. Their treatment is more closely monitored. The officers are more careful with how they handle them.
For instance, in Jackson, there isn’t a lot of TV action going on for the general population. Maybe a movie once or twice a week, but for death row, there’s lots of TV.
J* Why?
D* I don’t know the ins and outs of that.
On death row, they have their lawyers looking out for them. The state doesn’t wanna stir up any problems. I don’t know if these numbers are exactly accurate but it’s something like $20,000 per year spent to lock someone up in general population and like $6,000,000 over the life of the case for a death row inmate.
That one who used to tell me his rap…
J* The terrible rapper?
D* Yeah, he had a life sentence because that county couldn’t afford a death row case.
J* No way!
D* Yep. There is so much money that’s spent. Like with Brian Nichols, a couple million, but that’s not even the end.
I was talking to one of the psychiatrists who said he used to be a death penalty supporter but changed his mind because it’s just not worth it. All that money.
In Jackson, there was a section reserved for the best behaved of the death row inmates. I think it’s death row, maybe something else, but this guy I'm talking about was on the mental health block often. He looked old as dirt. A lot of these folks lived hard. I figured he was in his early 70’s. I found out later he was 42! Not real stable. He was always polite to me though. He ended up doing some rules infractions and lost his recreation time for a couple of weeks. He just lost it.
When I would go to his cell I had to tell him everything. I had to say, “Get out of the bed. Walk to the bars. Pick up the cup. Put the medication in your mouth. Drink the water. Swallow.” I had to tell him everything. When he was confined like that he fell apart. When he got his recreation time back after a while, he was back to himself.
There was another guy who was kept at the end of the row where he couldn’t be heard by everyone. He would be huddled in a corner in his cell with a sheet over his head laughing loudly. He was hallucinating that he was in there with his brother and his brother was telling him jokes. (laughs)
If you told him to do something and he didn’t understand you, he would ask what’s wrong with you. (laughs again) He meant it too. What’s wrong with you? Most mentally ill people usually know that they are mentally ill. Not him. It was YOU.
J* You ever journal these stories?
D* No. I probably should though.
Let me tell you this, at Jackson, there was this officer who was really great. He was in a supervisor position. He could get any of the officers to do anything and he had solid control of the inmates.
J* Because they feared him?
D* Maybe on some level. Some level respect.
He could tell them to jump and they would really ask how high. He would yell at folks and get ‘em shakin’ a little bit. One day I was watching him and noticed he was having fun with this.
J* Is he still there?
D* No. He took a private security job. A shame to see him go. Good officers develop their own style.
Some inmates would only respond if you cussed them out. But there is a certain style with which you could do that. Some new officers would come in loud and cursing. The inmates would see through that and not show them respect. The best officers were the middle aged women.
You know, prisons only work because the inmates agree to be inmates. They could take over the place in fifteen minutes if they didn’t agree to that. The thing is though, they couldn’t agree or come to that kind of unity. The ones who are mentally stable look down on the mentally ill inmates. This race against that one. This gang against another.
J* So it’s to the guards advantage that the inmates don’t get along.
D* Well, in a way. Not that they encourage it though.
Lockup is a criminal world. The guards can’t catch all of it. There are sex crimes and so there are a lot of STD’s in prison. It’s a violation for them to be having sex, so there are no condoms.
J* But they know that they’re having sex, why don’t they give them condoms?
D* That’s against the law. The inmates steal latex gloves from the medical staff. And they get other things. The trustees are not very trustworthy. They pass around information.
J* What kind of information?
D* Staff movement, who’s on staff, they pass contraband, materials for making drinks. If they know an inmate who is depressed, they give him razor blades and encourage him to kill himself.
J* Why?
D* Entertainment.
They do a bad job a lot of times and end up having to get treated. It’s messy. The blood and marks.
J* Where do they get razors anyway?
D* Inmates are good at hiding things. There was an inmate who was boasting about being so good at hiding things, mostly in his mouth. He wanted to prove that he could hide his pills in his mouth. So I gave him his pills, gave him water, watched him swallow. He opened his mouth and the officer shined the light in his mouth. Saw nothing. The inmate closed his mouth then spit out the pill.
After that I gave him more water and he took his pill. I think.
There was an inmate who used to hide razor blades in his nose.
J* What kind of razor blade?
D* Like the kind in a disposable razor.
J* Ouch.
D* Sometimes they cut into their penis and hide things there.
J* What?
D* Yeah. They cut a little bit, let it heal. Cut some more. Then some more. Soon there is a pocket there. The officers are supposed to squeeze the penis when they search them but they don’t.
J* Are there a lot of mental health inmates in Union City?
D* A lot. But many didn’t get treated.
J* Because…?
D* It was too expensive to treat them. There are a lot of illnesses and diseases not properly treated. MRSA is very common in jails.
There is a lot (pause) a lot going on.
D* I did some part time work for two months at the Fulton County Jail in the mid ‘90’s, maybe ‘94. I needed the extra cash but later I told them, “Don’t call me, I’ll call you”. I knew it was a matter of time before the inmates were going to sue the county and win. And a few years later they did sue them.
J* What were some of your experiences?
D* Officers would wander off from nurses. They are supposed to be by you. Inmates were wild there. I was routinely having inmates coming on to me sexually. More men than women. The building was about five years old but on the inside it looked like it was fifty years old. It was so battered and poorly maintained. The doors weren’t secure, windows were broken. The officers were fairly indifferent and out of shape. They couldn’t have picked up a gun if they dropped it on the floor.
The building didn’t feel like circulation was very good. The inmates were getting TB but not really being cared for.
J* This was at Fulton County?
D* Yes. Some years later, in ‘96 perhaps, I worked for a couple of months at Metro State Prison. Metro is not too bad. It’s a medium sized facility with about 740 beds or something. Fairly compact, laid out. It was a pretty well run place from the security standpoint.
J* What would I be surprised at?
D* How many health problems there are. Metro was a woman’s diagnostic facility. All women who went to prison went to Metro first. Roughly 400 were on medication routinely. Inmates tend not to be a healthy population.
There were hardly any inpatient beds. You had all these people released with mental health cases with no safety nets.
The prison industry is now the largest in mental health service.
D* If you show any discomfort about being there, the inmates will eat you alive. Things are better for the medical staff than the officers. The officers are treated as the enemy. The inmates usually know that the medical staff is there to help them. I only had a few inmates give me trouble.
J* Did any of the inmates get clingy with you?
D* Not really. Being tough is very important.
J* Why did you leave corrections?
D* I needed a break from the inmates.
I remember there was one inmate in the hole who had killed an officer. Some days he was fairly outgoing and would recite his terrible poetry and rap to me. I would just listen and say, “Thank you for sharing that.”
J* Were you ever alone with him?
D* Oh noooo. These people can be locked down super securely. There was always an officer present.
There is a super max prison that was being built, and this guy, the terrible rapper, he was in line to go there. No, I was never alone with them. The CERT team handled him when he was out of his cell. He would be in chains from the waist down even to go to the shower.
If he was in a good mood, then he might be OK, but if he wasn’t, he flipped. Once I asked how he was doing and he went off. “How the fuck do you think I am! I’m on death row! I’ll kill you!” He was seriously unstable. Back in the ‘50’s he probably would have been committed to a mental hospital and been there for life.
Another guy on death row was a guy who had gotten a lot of attention in the news. He had killed a lot of people in one day. He used to scare some of the staff by speaking in these demon voices.
(laughs) There was one guy, he was on death row too. He honestly believed that he had a pick up truck outside the prison and that he had a job at night at a gold coin plant. He would get angry with the guards because they would make him late for work.
J* Are the death row inmates and general population inmates ever connected?
D* No. I mean, if there is a death row inmate who is in the hole, then he might be able to hear someone in general population from another cell. Death row has their own section. There is extra tight security there. In some ways, there is a little better accommodations. They are more heavily staffed. Their treatment is more closely monitored. The officers are more careful with how they handle them.
For instance, in Jackson, there isn’t a lot of TV action going on for the general population. Maybe a movie once or twice a week, but for death row, there’s lots of TV.
J* Why?
D* I don’t know the ins and outs of that.
On death row, they have their lawyers looking out for them. The state doesn’t wanna stir up any problems. I don’t know if these numbers are exactly accurate but it’s something like $20,000 per year spent to lock someone up in general population and like $6,000,000 over the life of the case for a death row inmate.
That one who used to tell me his rap…
J* The terrible rapper?
D* Yeah, he had a life sentence because that county couldn’t afford a death row case.
J* No way!
D* Yep. There is so much money that’s spent. Like with Brian Nichols, a couple million, but that’s not even the end.
I was talking to one of the psychiatrists who said he used to be a death penalty supporter but changed his mind because it’s just not worth it. All that money.
In Jackson, there was a section reserved for the best behaved of the death row inmates. I think it’s death row, maybe something else, but this guy I'm talking about was on the mental health block often. He looked old as dirt. A lot of these folks lived hard. I figured he was in his early 70’s. I found out later he was 42! Not real stable. He was always polite to me though. He ended up doing some rules infractions and lost his recreation time for a couple of weeks. He just lost it.
When I would go to his cell I had to tell him everything. I had to say, “Get out of the bed. Walk to the bars. Pick up the cup. Put the medication in your mouth. Drink the water. Swallow.” I had to tell him everything. When he was confined like that he fell apart. When he got his recreation time back after a while, he was back to himself.
There was another guy who was kept at the end of the row where he couldn’t be heard by everyone. He would be huddled in a corner in his cell with a sheet over his head laughing loudly. He was hallucinating that he was in there with his brother and his brother was telling him jokes. (laughs)
If you told him to do something and he didn’t understand you, he would ask what’s wrong with you. (laughs again) He meant it too. What’s wrong with you? Most mentally ill people usually know that they are mentally ill. Not him. It was YOU.
J* You ever journal these stories?
D* No. I probably should though.
Let me tell you this, at Jackson, there was this officer who was really great. He was in a supervisor position. He could get any of the officers to do anything and he had solid control of the inmates.
J* Because they feared him?
D* Maybe on some level. Some level respect.
He could tell them to jump and they would really ask how high. He would yell at folks and get ‘em shakin’ a little bit. One day I was watching him and noticed he was having fun with this.
J* Is he still there?
D* No. He took a private security job. A shame to see him go. Good officers develop their own style.
Some inmates would only respond if you cussed them out. But there is a certain style with which you could do that. Some new officers would come in loud and cursing. The inmates would see through that and not show them respect. The best officers were the middle aged women.
You know, prisons only work because the inmates agree to be inmates. They could take over the place in fifteen minutes if they didn’t agree to that. The thing is though, they couldn’t agree or come to that kind of unity. The ones who are mentally stable look down on the mentally ill inmates. This race against that one. This gang against another.
J* So it’s to the guards advantage that the inmates don’t get along.
D* Well, in a way. Not that they encourage it though.
Lockup is a criminal world. The guards can’t catch all of it. There are sex crimes and so there are a lot of STD’s in prison. It’s a violation for them to be having sex, so there are no condoms.
J* But they know that they’re having sex, why don’t they give them condoms?
D* That’s against the law. The inmates steal latex gloves from the medical staff. And they get other things. The trustees are not very trustworthy. They pass around information.
J* What kind of information?
D* Staff movement, who’s on staff, they pass contraband, materials for making drinks. If they know an inmate who is depressed, they give him razor blades and encourage him to kill himself.
J* Why?
D* Entertainment.
They do a bad job a lot of times and end up having to get treated. It’s messy. The blood and marks.
J* Where do they get razors anyway?
D* Inmates are good at hiding things. There was an inmate who was boasting about being so good at hiding things, mostly in his mouth. He wanted to prove that he could hide his pills in his mouth. So I gave him his pills, gave him water, watched him swallow. He opened his mouth and the officer shined the light in his mouth. Saw nothing. The inmate closed his mouth then spit out the pill.
After that I gave him more water and he took his pill. I think.
There was an inmate who used to hide razor blades in his nose.
J* What kind of razor blade?
D* Like the kind in a disposable razor.
J* Ouch.
D* Sometimes they cut into their penis and hide things there.
J* What?
D* Yeah. They cut a little bit, let it heal. Cut some more. Then some more. Soon there is a pocket there. The officers are supposed to squeeze the penis when they search them but they don’t.
J* Are there a lot of mental health inmates in Union City?
D* A lot. But many didn’t get treated.
J* Because…?
D* It was too expensive to treat them. There are a lot of illnesses and diseases not properly treated. MRSA is very common in jails.
There is a lot (pause) a lot going on.
Me with me part 2 7-21-09
?* And???...
Jaha* And today is one of those days. Not really one of those days. One of those moments that's all. When I could just quit. But I won't. Thank God I've grown enough to read the signs.
?* What are they saying?
Jaha* In the past, I would feel like this and I think it was time to crawl in a corner and disappear.
?* And now?
Jaha* And now I hold my head up and remember Whose I am. Circumstances are just circumstances. Just temporary. Not real. Uraeus is real. My mother is real. My family, my friends, my dog, Love is real. God is real.
Everything else is just...
?* So if you don't crawl in a corner, then what do you do?
Jaha* I pray. I turn the music up. I put on a flowing skirt. I dance.
?* To what?
Jaha* Beautiful Anyway.
Jaha* And today is one of those days. Not really one of those days. One of those moments that's all. When I could just quit. But I won't. Thank God I've grown enough to read the signs.
?* What are they saying?
Jaha* In the past, I would feel like this and I think it was time to crawl in a corner and disappear.
?* And now?
Jaha* And now I hold my head up and remember Whose I am. Circumstances are just circumstances. Just temporary. Not real. Uraeus is real. My mother is real. My family, my friends, my dog, Love is real. God is real.
Everything else is just...
?* So if you don't crawl in a corner, then what do you do?
Jaha* I pray. I turn the music up. I put on a flowing skirt. I dance.
?* To what?
Jaha* Beautiful Anyway.
Me with me part 1 7-20-09
?* Wellll???
Jaha* Well, I guess I talk to myself all the time anyway, why not make that public.
?* So why the blog?
Jaha* I keep asking and answering that question. Guess it keeps coming up because I keep trying to answer it when really the answer is, just because. Just because that's what I'm led to do right now.
Been thinking a lot about my...mortality. Seems like every time I turn around someone else is...gone. No one is ever gone, but, you know. I think about what I want to leave future generations. Uraeus is always asking me to tell him stories about my grandfather and I feel like I've told all the ones I have to tell. The blog, I guess is my way of keeping the memories alive. The memories of me, of the family, of my thoughts, dreams, my fears, my faults, failures, successes.
I wish I knew what my aunts and uncles thought about.
?* Like who?
Jaha* Aunts and uncles I never knew. Grandmommy used to talk a lot about Aunt Ella. She said I was like her.
?* In what way?
Jaha* Not sure really, but when she would say it it would always be at a time when I did something that made me feel stupid like when I mumbled something or...
?* Mumbled something?
Jaha* Yeah, like I would feel embarrassed about asking for something, anything and I would mumble and she would mock me and call me Aunt Ella. But I think maybe I was like her. Maybe I thought like her, or maybe she was an artist or wanted to be. I don't know.
?* Why the Mary poems and stories?
Jaha* (laughs) My way of connecting, I guess. Connecting to family I don't know. Mary was my grandmother's first child who passed away three days after she was born. I think about who she would have been. Who we would have been for each other. I think about her.
Jaha* Well, I guess I talk to myself all the time anyway, why not make that public.
?* So why the blog?
Jaha* I keep asking and answering that question. Guess it keeps coming up because I keep trying to answer it when really the answer is, just because. Just because that's what I'm led to do right now.
Been thinking a lot about my...mortality. Seems like every time I turn around someone else is...gone. No one is ever gone, but, you know. I think about what I want to leave future generations. Uraeus is always asking me to tell him stories about my grandfather and I feel like I've told all the ones I have to tell. The blog, I guess is my way of keeping the memories alive. The memories of me, of the family, of my thoughts, dreams, my fears, my faults, failures, successes.
I wish I knew what my aunts and uncles thought about.
?* Like who?
Jaha* Aunts and uncles I never knew. Grandmommy used to talk a lot about Aunt Ella. She said I was like her.
?* In what way?
Jaha* Not sure really, but when she would say it it would always be at a time when I did something that made me feel stupid like when I mumbled something or...
?* Mumbled something?
Jaha* Yeah, like I would feel embarrassed about asking for something, anything and I would mumble and she would mock me and call me Aunt Ella. But I think maybe I was like her. Maybe I thought like her, or maybe she was an artist or wanted to be. I don't know.
?* Why the Mary poems and stories?
Jaha* (laughs) My way of connecting, I guess. Connecting to family I don't know. Mary was my grandmother's first child who passed away three days after she was born. I think about who she would have been. Who we would have been for each other. I think about her.
Me with John 7-18-09
John* I don't know where to start, gimme a question.
Jaha* When you remember the house on Orange Ave. what do you remember first?
John* 2060 Orange Ave.
Jaha* What do you remember first?
John* Uummm, what comes most to my mind was before Don and I started school. You know that picture of us with mama, and Don is crying? That picture was taken at 2060 Orange. I remember the guy setting up the camera. I remember Don being so fussy during that. When I look at it now and realize Don was crying all that time, it just kind of... I was curious as to why he was so fidgety. Just thinking back on it, as an adult, looking at the picture, I go back to that moment anytime Don and I have conversations. It helps me to put a perspective around our encounters. Sometimes they're very confrontational. For whatever reason, I sense that confrontation to be related to that moment and time. I don't know why. I just notice the difference in our countenances. I'm pretty laid back and he's pretty animated.
I see myself relative to my siblings
Jaha* So where are yall again?
John* We're just before Janice.
Jaha* I can never name it right.
John* I grew up between Jimmy and Don and Patsy. We got in trouble together and hung out together. I liked staying at home with mama and my sisters. Don and Jimmy would have to drag me outside and play. I would never wake up and say, "Let's go outside and play." I followed them out. Wesley drive or Leigh Court was our running ground. Whittier Elementary was where we went to school.
Me and Patsy are the quiet ones. Jimmy and Don were the ones who created the mess we got into. Anyway I found myself the quiet one of all them, similar to what I am today. Most times I preferred the company of my sisters or my mother. I wasn’t that athletic. I didn’t care to play kickball or whatever ball.
Jaha* When did you move to the west side?
John* Don and I started the 7th grade at Franklin, then we moved to 1291 Taper Street.
I went through high school and started college at Claremont in Pomona and went there for two years. After two years of Claremont, I didn’t want to stay there. I wanted to go back east. I had never been. I found this college called Connecticut College in New Haven. Therman was living in Pennsylvania and I figured I could go to see him. Mama and Daddy didn’t like it, but they were happy I was still in school. I got there and I had no interest in school. I traveled. I even went to Michigan one weekend with someone. I failed out of there. I ended up staying at Therman's. Angela had been born. She was maybe one or two.
Marilyn was into computers and I understood the kinda of work she was doing. I was trying to find work in Pennsylvania. Eventually I wasn’t finding work and I ended up going back to California.
I came back to the house and spent that whole summer getting high with Dundy and Don. Mama pulled me aside and said, "Either you go to work or go to school." I remembered Marilyn was working in computers and so I went to Control Data Institute. That’s how I started working in the field I'm in today. That was 1974. I started working in the payroll department of a company in Los Alamitos.
Therman was living in L.A. at the time. No, he was back east. We ended up talking one day one or two years after I started my job. People were asking me if I was going back to school. And I said I didn’t have a reason to because I already had a job. Therman was the one who went into why I should go back to school. He said it was the "ticket of ability." He said, "Just imagine years out when you don’t have a degree. The degree is the stepping stone to have the door open for you." The next semester I enrolled at Cal State Dominguez and transferred to Cal State Long Beach. In 1976 I had my degree.
(Break)
John* With this reunion coming up, Ive been thinking about my brothers and sisters and the excitement of seeing everybody in one place. I've been thinking about my comfort with it and my ambulance of it.
Jaha* Why are you ambivalent?
John* It's been a long time since we got together. It's the first time a niece or nephew put it on, except Ronnie who is kinda like a brother. The first time since Therman has been there.
I'm trying to open up conversations so that it gets a little deeper. I'm concerned about the future. You guys will survive us. We are the generation to go next. Ummm, I don't know what word to use besides ambivalent.
I'll be looking at all these people in terms of where we are in our lives, with Patsy dealing with her illness and I have my illness, Mildred is in her seventies. That's on my mind. On the good part, we all will be together. We'll get to talk to each other.
Jaha* Get together and go deeper and talk about what?
John* Like what's the legacy we wanna leave? I wanna talk about where we've been and what we've done. What can we do to help make the transition into your older ages different from ours. Like I'm single and got money saved. What can I do to help structure your children. Like getting a house and school and that kinda stuff. Talk about substantial things.
Jaha* Will you initiate those conversations?
John* I have already with Therman while he was here. I talked to your mother about it. She and I have a trust created that tells how we want our estates distributed when we leave this earth. My idea is to give some money to some charity, the church, how much I don't know. There is an amount that's there, but it can change over time. To provide that money for scholarships for people related to me and to support the black community at large.
Jaha* But will you introduce those conversations to us?
John* If there's is an opportunity when everybody wants to hear it, then I'm open to have the conversations.
The only thing I expect for the reunion is to talk about how to move this generation forward. You should have something to talk about. Your children are going to college. How are you going to support them? There's you, Roshann, Ronnie, Angela, I believe you guys have an idea of what you wanna do, but Joshua, Deon, Darius are just starting families. Like, I think about Mama and Daddy who had land in Louisiana and just let it go and didn't even try to claim it. We shouldn't let that happen.
That brings up other issues at looking at my brothers and sisters. I don't know, start at the top, Troy is gone. He has two children and grandchildren in Alaska. Since Troy has passed, how many people have engaged with them or gone to Alaska? It seems like with his absence we're not even trying to reach out to Betty. When she stops through here, I try to get together as often as I can but I'm about the only one. We owe it to Troy to try to be more inclusive. I don't even know if you know that Kim and Tony aren't together. He's going through a divorce and nobody is reaching out to him. There's no reason for that to happen when all that's required is to pick up the phone.
Jaha* Wow. That's why I just wanted you to talk. I couldn't have asked that.
John* Yeah, we are so disconnected. I see myself as a conduit that people tend to come through or go through to get my perspective. I've been talking to Darius since Val and Don split up. He's committed to going to school and he needs help financially and all that kinda stuff. He's been floating. With the break up of Don and Val and his brother acting half crazy. He's hurting. Not sure how to engage in stuff. Yet he's comfortable enough to talk to me. I'm committed to helping him with what I can.
Jaha* Where is he going to school?
John* He got accepted to Texas U. He wants to go for psychology and philosophy. The reason why is that his calling is to the ministry. I understand that. That's the depth of the conversations I'd like to have. I wanna know what's going on in your life. I'm open to hearing whatever is going on.
So that's basically where I'm coming from. I'm not a bs kinda person. I just wanna know where you're coming from and wanna evaluate it against my perspective of things. I have no obligations to agree with you.
And so to kinda deviate, with my sisters, I can talk to them about anything and everything. They open up about what's going through their minds. They ask me about how I'm feeling and what's going on in my life. They reach out to me to get involved with misunderstandings. I wish my brothers can have that same type of relationships with them. They are missing out on the opportunity to have that relationship. Just because they choose not to engage. Not just brother to sister, but man to woman. They empathize with me. They worry about me. I know they love me. There is no question they would do anything in the world for me. I say that about my nieces too.
It's my willingness to respect you as women and nieces and sisters. To empower you or to just give you the understanding that I'm there to give you what's necessary. But allow me to give my input. No flexing of muscles or trying to stand bigger. We come together as equals regardless of the ages. We can jump into conversations without all the shit that don't matter to nobody. I wish I could have the same relationship with my brothers. That's the Davis side of the family.
I do see a gene of Davis vs. Gray. The males in the family are more dictated by the Davises and the women are dictated by Grays.
Looking at the Davises from Daddy's perceptive and looking at the Grays from Mama's. Daddy was withholding. He didn't necessarily give you a basis of his thoughts. He would just give you blunt statements formulated however it was formulated. He would give you his opinion without telling you how he arrived there.
Whereas the Grays are more outgoing, more gregarious, more fun. You can read them pretty well. Most of the sisters have that. Bobby is probably is less Gray than Davis.
Jaha* You think Bobby is more Davis?
John* Yes. Of the sisters, she's the most.
Jaha* Why?
John* In my opinion, one of the things about the Davises is that we don't want to acknowledge our weaknesses or frailties. I could sit here and be in pain and never get on the phone and tell somebody. That's a Davis trait, trying to be strong but really not. We don't want to expose our limitations. That's why we laugh a lot. The Gray side is a lot more...willing to state what the problem is. The women may take more time to do it, but when they do, they do.
The Gray's are a lot more intuitive about approaches in life. More sensitive. More willing to take in a whole lot of variables to find a center and stand on that center. Janice, Mildred, Patsy, Bobby. They stand on their centers. They know their limitations in terms of being pushed past their core, they know their core. That's what I learned from my sisters. I am probably more Gray than Davis, which is unusual for a male in the family.
Let me tell you something.
Jaha* Ok.
John* Separate from the blog. Write it down though because I don't know if I'll ever say this again.
(We take a break from the blog and talk.)
(Back to the blog)
Jaha* Whatever happened to Rocco?
John* That story? Uuggggmmmm.
Jaha* I liked him.
John* Everybody liked him. I liked him. I had spent eight years with him. He formed all these relationships with my family, even Janice wanted to invite him to her wedding. When we were together and his mother or his sisters would call to speak to him, I would just hand him the phone. I didn't think about it. But I didn't know them.
I had come back down to Long Beach and he was still in San Francisco. While I was in Long Beach we were fighting a lot. He came down to the house and just said he wanted to end the relationship. He said he was embarrassed. He said I wasn't someone he would take home to his family. It really hit me that he knew my family but I never knew his. I said "Ok." He walked out of the house. I was really hurt but...
In 1988 I took an HIV test with a friend of mine and we found out that we were both positive.
Jaha* A lover or a friend?
John* A friend. I took him to Life Springs and he challenged me to take the test and I did. I said, "I'll go with you and we'll find out together." He ended up dying within five years of finding out. I found out in '88, Rocco and I broke up n '86.
Jaha* Did you ever tell him?
John* When he walked out that day that was the last day I talked to him. We communicated through letters about the business we had to settle.
In '86 he left and I'm dealing with all that. In '88 with Art I find out were both positive. That was enhancing stress. I had started plans on the house to do some remodeling and thinking I was going to get some quicker response from him and low and behold, the money wasn't coming in. People were pushing me to pay. I couldn't afford to stay there or finish the project. I couldn't live in the house but they had started the work such that I couldn't live there. Then at the time with Mama and Daddy in their situation, I moved in.
I knew I had to go somewhere and I had a job and that was the good thing. I continued working and let it play out however it was going to. In '88 when the doctor told me that I was HIV positive, I looked at him and said, "Now I know." From the Life Springs experience I just said, "It's in your hands, God." I resolved that I would die. I didn't think I would survive much longer than Art did. I thought I was going to die before anybody in the family. I didn't want to burden Mama with the reality of it. With what she was dealing with with Daddy, she had no reason to know about me. Because they didn't know, I couldn't tell any of the siblings. I just laid my life in God's hands.
The doctor wanted to put me on AZT which was the only thing out there at that time. God gave me the wherewithal to know that I'm wasn't feeling sick or down and there was no reason to take it. I told the doctor I would start when I had a reason, like when something showed up on me. He looked at me kinda surprised. I knew I was gonna have to adjust my life to deal with it.
By this time I'm still at the house and dealing with the loss of Rocco and the stress of HIV. Without a house. Adding all that stress lead me back to the house. What amazed me was that no one really inquired about the house. I was amazed that no one ever asked me about it.
Jaha* Grandmommy talked about the house all the time.
John* But not with me.
Jaha* So why did you move to Utah?
John* I was put on notice that my job at LAX was going to end. Unless I transferred to Tennessee I had to go to Utah. This job in Utah was presented to me and I just looked at it from the point of, I would have had to move to Tennessee, so the thought of moving was already there. I had no idea of what it would be like or how it would be. They set me up and I fell in love with the nature of the place. I thought, "What's keeping me in Long Beach?" I told Mama I was going to take the job in Utah.
I was happy with what I saw here. California had changed. I told her that she should put her house up for sale. Obviously she wouldn't. I told her she should get out with Daddy where she could live around doctors. Knowing that Daddy was not to live long and that Bubba was being challenged, I knew I had a value to be there with Mama and Daddy and Bubba in the house.
I had a revelation that death was going to occur in that house within the next five years. It was going to be me, one of them or Bubba. I knew that death was eminent. When the opportunity to go to Utah came for me I thought, "What reason was there to stay here." I thought it could be a new beginning for me. Frankly, was I ready to handle what I thought was to occur? Meaning, the death of someone that close to me. You know that Bible phrase, "Let the dead bury the dead?" That was running through my head. It just wasn't my turn. If I had been there as they passed, I don't know how... it was just better for me not to have been there. Before I left I knew Bubba was not going to live. Within one or two days of me leaving I told him to see a doctor. I begged him. He would not go. It became clear to me that I could not be here for what was going to occur. I couldn't witness it.
I had to go. God set up the circumstances. He set everything up to fall in place. So I got here and I started getting the word that Bubba was sick in the hospital and he died. Daddy and Mama continued another two years. Mama's death was a shock. I thought she would last much longer than that. So in that three year period, I don't know how I would have handled it. To be in that house and three people died. God had to know that I wouldn't have known how to deal with that. I thought I was going to be the first one to go. I think it was God's way of getting me out of there to center me on how to deal with losing Rocco. I think what's important is what I've become in this family since all that death. And then Therman getting lost in the wilderness. I think this was the blessing to get me strong enough to build us back where we are today. I don't think I could have been there for the family had I stayed in Long Beach.
Jaha* I think that about moving out here. I think that living here has added years to my life. I love L.A. but I would have been doing the same ole same ole. Not that it was wrong, but just the same ole.
John* Which is walking death to me. Me living here, I got back in the church and I don't think I would have ever. I'm around the best doctors as far as HIV. Seeing the family through what it has gone through. Troy dying. I had the experience that I had with Mama and Daddy. I got to show the family me as caretaker. I'm there for you. I don't have to be in your face. Seeing all my brothers go through their divorces. Then Therman comes back. I can't tell you what load is off of my shoulders with him back and enthuasitcally taking on the role of big brother and male head of the family. His absence... knowing he was not dead made me made me mad. Throwing his responsibilities all the way down to me. I'm sitting here worrying about my last days and then to take on those responsibilities.
On Don's comment about how we lined up at the church. Yes, I responded voraciously to him. But it was in respect of this. He and Val had just come into town the day before the wedding and all of a sudden he's talking about, "How come we're out of order?" Trying to get everybody in the same room to decide how we were going to do this... Then he says that. No, you just don't have a say right now. I wasn't trying to question his idea, I was just...you just got here. Just go along with it. No matter which way you look at it, somebody was going to be out of order. Yeah, I could have said it nicely but...
Don accepted my homosexuality and he found religion sometime thereafter. Like every person they become a little overzealous. He was trying to save me and Bubba and wanted us to accept Jesus like he had. I was like, "How do you know we don't already have Him?" 'Cause we didn't live like he lived. Since our adulthood he's always challenged me. I don't know what it is.
Jaha* When you remember the house on Orange Ave. what do you remember first?
John* 2060 Orange Ave.
Jaha* What do you remember first?
John* Uummm, what comes most to my mind was before Don and I started school. You know that picture of us with mama, and Don is crying? That picture was taken at 2060 Orange. I remember the guy setting up the camera. I remember Don being so fussy during that. When I look at it now and realize Don was crying all that time, it just kind of... I was curious as to why he was so fidgety. Just thinking back on it, as an adult, looking at the picture, I go back to that moment anytime Don and I have conversations. It helps me to put a perspective around our encounters. Sometimes they're very confrontational. For whatever reason, I sense that confrontation to be related to that moment and time. I don't know why. I just notice the difference in our countenances. I'm pretty laid back and he's pretty animated.
I see myself relative to my siblings
Jaha* So where are yall again?
John* We're just before Janice.
Jaha* I can never name it right.
John* I grew up between Jimmy and Don and Patsy. We got in trouble together and hung out together. I liked staying at home with mama and my sisters. Don and Jimmy would have to drag me outside and play. I would never wake up and say, "Let's go outside and play." I followed them out. Wesley drive or Leigh Court was our running ground. Whittier Elementary was where we went to school.
Me and Patsy are the quiet ones. Jimmy and Don were the ones who created the mess we got into. Anyway I found myself the quiet one of all them, similar to what I am today. Most times I preferred the company of my sisters or my mother. I wasn’t that athletic. I didn’t care to play kickball or whatever ball.
Jaha* When did you move to the west side?
John* Don and I started the 7th grade at Franklin, then we moved to 1291 Taper Street.
I went through high school and started college at Claremont in Pomona and went there for two years. After two years of Claremont, I didn’t want to stay there. I wanted to go back east. I had never been. I found this college called Connecticut College in New Haven. Therman was living in Pennsylvania and I figured I could go to see him. Mama and Daddy didn’t like it, but they were happy I was still in school. I got there and I had no interest in school. I traveled. I even went to Michigan one weekend with someone. I failed out of there. I ended up staying at Therman's. Angela had been born. She was maybe one or two.
Marilyn was into computers and I understood the kinda of work she was doing. I was trying to find work in Pennsylvania. Eventually I wasn’t finding work and I ended up going back to California.
I came back to the house and spent that whole summer getting high with Dundy and Don. Mama pulled me aside and said, "Either you go to work or go to school." I remembered Marilyn was working in computers and so I went to Control Data Institute. That’s how I started working in the field I'm in today. That was 1974. I started working in the payroll department of a company in Los Alamitos.
Therman was living in L.A. at the time. No, he was back east. We ended up talking one day one or two years after I started my job. People were asking me if I was going back to school. And I said I didn’t have a reason to because I already had a job. Therman was the one who went into why I should go back to school. He said it was the "ticket of ability." He said, "Just imagine years out when you don’t have a degree. The degree is the stepping stone to have the door open for you." The next semester I enrolled at Cal State Dominguez and transferred to Cal State Long Beach. In 1976 I had my degree.
(Break)
John* With this reunion coming up, Ive been thinking about my brothers and sisters and the excitement of seeing everybody in one place. I've been thinking about my comfort with it and my ambulance of it.
Jaha* Why are you ambivalent?
John* It's been a long time since we got together. It's the first time a niece or nephew put it on, except Ronnie who is kinda like a brother. The first time since Therman has been there.
I'm trying to open up conversations so that it gets a little deeper. I'm concerned about the future. You guys will survive us. We are the generation to go next. Ummm, I don't know what word to use besides ambivalent.
I'll be looking at all these people in terms of where we are in our lives, with Patsy dealing with her illness and I have my illness, Mildred is in her seventies. That's on my mind. On the good part, we all will be together. We'll get to talk to each other.
Jaha* Get together and go deeper and talk about what?
John* Like what's the legacy we wanna leave? I wanna talk about where we've been and what we've done. What can we do to help make the transition into your older ages different from ours. Like I'm single and got money saved. What can I do to help structure your children. Like getting a house and school and that kinda stuff. Talk about substantial things.
Jaha* Will you initiate those conversations?
John* I have already with Therman while he was here. I talked to your mother about it. She and I have a trust created that tells how we want our estates distributed when we leave this earth. My idea is to give some money to some charity, the church, how much I don't know. There is an amount that's there, but it can change over time. To provide that money for scholarships for people related to me and to support the black community at large.
Jaha* But will you introduce those conversations to us?
John* If there's is an opportunity when everybody wants to hear it, then I'm open to have the conversations.
The only thing I expect for the reunion is to talk about how to move this generation forward. You should have something to talk about. Your children are going to college. How are you going to support them? There's you, Roshann, Ronnie, Angela, I believe you guys have an idea of what you wanna do, but Joshua, Deon, Darius are just starting families. Like, I think about Mama and Daddy who had land in Louisiana and just let it go and didn't even try to claim it. We shouldn't let that happen.
That brings up other issues at looking at my brothers and sisters. I don't know, start at the top, Troy is gone. He has two children and grandchildren in Alaska. Since Troy has passed, how many people have engaged with them or gone to Alaska? It seems like with his absence we're not even trying to reach out to Betty. When she stops through here, I try to get together as often as I can but I'm about the only one. We owe it to Troy to try to be more inclusive. I don't even know if you know that Kim and Tony aren't together. He's going through a divorce and nobody is reaching out to him. There's no reason for that to happen when all that's required is to pick up the phone.
Jaha* Wow. That's why I just wanted you to talk. I couldn't have asked that.
John* Yeah, we are so disconnected. I see myself as a conduit that people tend to come through or go through to get my perspective. I've been talking to Darius since Val and Don split up. He's committed to going to school and he needs help financially and all that kinda stuff. He's been floating. With the break up of Don and Val and his brother acting half crazy. He's hurting. Not sure how to engage in stuff. Yet he's comfortable enough to talk to me. I'm committed to helping him with what I can.
Jaha* Where is he going to school?
John* He got accepted to Texas U. He wants to go for psychology and philosophy. The reason why is that his calling is to the ministry. I understand that. That's the depth of the conversations I'd like to have. I wanna know what's going on in your life. I'm open to hearing whatever is going on.
So that's basically where I'm coming from. I'm not a bs kinda person. I just wanna know where you're coming from and wanna evaluate it against my perspective of things. I have no obligations to agree with you.
And so to kinda deviate, with my sisters, I can talk to them about anything and everything. They open up about what's going through their minds. They ask me about how I'm feeling and what's going on in my life. They reach out to me to get involved with misunderstandings. I wish my brothers can have that same type of relationships with them. They are missing out on the opportunity to have that relationship. Just because they choose not to engage. Not just brother to sister, but man to woman. They empathize with me. They worry about me. I know they love me. There is no question they would do anything in the world for me. I say that about my nieces too.
It's my willingness to respect you as women and nieces and sisters. To empower you or to just give you the understanding that I'm there to give you what's necessary. But allow me to give my input. No flexing of muscles or trying to stand bigger. We come together as equals regardless of the ages. We can jump into conversations without all the shit that don't matter to nobody. I wish I could have the same relationship with my brothers. That's the Davis side of the family.
I do see a gene of Davis vs. Gray. The males in the family are more dictated by the Davises and the women are dictated by Grays.
Looking at the Davises from Daddy's perceptive and looking at the Grays from Mama's. Daddy was withholding. He didn't necessarily give you a basis of his thoughts. He would just give you blunt statements formulated however it was formulated. He would give you his opinion without telling you how he arrived there.
Whereas the Grays are more outgoing, more gregarious, more fun. You can read them pretty well. Most of the sisters have that. Bobby is probably is less Gray than Davis.
Jaha* You think Bobby is more Davis?
John* Yes. Of the sisters, she's the most.
Jaha* Why?
John* In my opinion, one of the things about the Davises is that we don't want to acknowledge our weaknesses or frailties. I could sit here and be in pain and never get on the phone and tell somebody. That's a Davis trait, trying to be strong but really not. We don't want to expose our limitations. That's why we laugh a lot. The Gray side is a lot more...willing to state what the problem is. The women may take more time to do it, but when they do, they do.
The Gray's are a lot more intuitive about approaches in life. More sensitive. More willing to take in a whole lot of variables to find a center and stand on that center. Janice, Mildred, Patsy, Bobby. They stand on their centers. They know their limitations in terms of being pushed past their core, they know their core. That's what I learned from my sisters. I am probably more Gray than Davis, which is unusual for a male in the family.
Let me tell you something.
Jaha* Ok.
John* Separate from the blog. Write it down though because I don't know if I'll ever say this again.
(We take a break from the blog and talk.)
(Back to the blog)
Jaha* Whatever happened to Rocco?
John* That story? Uuggggmmmm.
Jaha* I liked him.
John* Everybody liked him. I liked him. I had spent eight years with him. He formed all these relationships with my family, even Janice wanted to invite him to her wedding. When we were together and his mother or his sisters would call to speak to him, I would just hand him the phone. I didn't think about it. But I didn't know them.
I had come back down to Long Beach and he was still in San Francisco. While I was in Long Beach we were fighting a lot. He came down to the house and just said he wanted to end the relationship. He said he was embarrassed. He said I wasn't someone he would take home to his family. It really hit me that he knew my family but I never knew his. I said "Ok." He walked out of the house. I was really hurt but...
In 1988 I took an HIV test with a friend of mine and we found out that we were both positive.
Jaha* A lover or a friend?
John* A friend. I took him to Life Springs and he challenged me to take the test and I did. I said, "I'll go with you and we'll find out together." He ended up dying within five years of finding out. I found out in '88, Rocco and I broke up n '86.
Jaha* Did you ever tell him?
John* When he walked out that day that was the last day I talked to him. We communicated through letters about the business we had to settle.
In '86 he left and I'm dealing with all that. In '88 with Art I find out were both positive. That was enhancing stress. I had started plans on the house to do some remodeling and thinking I was going to get some quicker response from him and low and behold, the money wasn't coming in. People were pushing me to pay. I couldn't afford to stay there or finish the project. I couldn't live in the house but they had started the work such that I couldn't live there. Then at the time with Mama and Daddy in their situation, I moved in.
I knew I had to go somewhere and I had a job and that was the good thing. I continued working and let it play out however it was going to. In '88 when the doctor told me that I was HIV positive, I looked at him and said, "Now I know." From the Life Springs experience I just said, "It's in your hands, God." I resolved that I would die. I didn't think I would survive much longer than Art did. I thought I was going to die before anybody in the family. I didn't want to burden Mama with the reality of it. With what she was dealing with with Daddy, she had no reason to know about me. Because they didn't know, I couldn't tell any of the siblings. I just laid my life in God's hands.
The doctor wanted to put me on AZT which was the only thing out there at that time. God gave me the wherewithal to know that I'm wasn't feeling sick or down and there was no reason to take it. I told the doctor I would start when I had a reason, like when something showed up on me. He looked at me kinda surprised. I knew I was gonna have to adjust my life to deal with it.
By this time I'm still at the house and dealing with the loss of Rocco and the stress of HIV. Without a house. Adding all that stress lead me back to the house. What amazed me was that no one really inquired about the house. I was amazed that no one ever asked me about it.
Jaha* Grandmommy talked about the house all the time.
John* But not with me.
Jaha* So why did you move to Utah?
John* I was put on notice that my job at LAX was going to end. Unless I transferred to Tennessee I had to go to Utah. This job in Utah was presented to me and I just looked at it from the point of, I would have had to move to Tennessee, so the thought of moving was already there. I had no idea of what it would be like or how it would be. They set me up and I fell in love with the nature of the place. I thought, "What's keeping me in Long Beach?" I told Mama I was going to take the job in Utah.
I was happy with what I saw here. California had changed. I told her that she should put her house up for sale. Obviously she wouldn't. I told her she should get out with Daddy where she could live around doctors. Knowing that Daddy was not to live long and that Bubba was being challenged, I knew I had a value to be there with Mama and Daddy and Bubba in the house.
I had a revelation that death was going to occur in that house within the next five years. It was going to be me, one of them or Bubba. I knew that death was eminent. When the opportunity to go to Utah came for me I thought, "What reason was there to stay here." I thought it could be a new beginning for me. Frankly, was I ready to handle what I thought was to occur? Meaning, the death of someone that close to me. You know that Bible phrase, "Let the dead bury the dead?" That was running through my head. It just wasn't my turn. If I had been there as they passed, I don't know how... it was just better for me not to have been there. Before I left I knew Bubba was not going to live. Within one or two days of me leaving I told him to see a doctor. I begged him. He would not go. It became clear to me that I could not be here for what was going to occur. I couldn't witness it.
I had to go. God set up the circumstances. He set everything up to fall in place. So I got here and I started getting the word that Bubba was sick in the hospital and he died. Daddy and Mama continued another two years. Mama's death was a shock. I thought she would last much longer than that. So in that three year period, I don't know how I would have handled it. To be in that house and three people died. God had to know that I wouldn't have known how to deal with that. I thought I was going to be the first one to go. I think it was God's way of getting me out of there to center me on how to deal with losing Rocco. I think what's important is what I've become in this family since all that death. And then Therman getting lost in the wilderness. I think this was the blessing to get me strong enough to build us back where we are today. I don't think I could have been there for the family had I stayed in Long Beach.
Jaha* I think that about moving out here. I think that living here has added years to my life. I love L.A. but I would have been doing the same ole same ole. Not that it was wrong, but just the same ole.
John* Which is walking death to me. Me living here, I got back in the church and I don't think I would have ever. I'm around the best doctors as far as HIV. Seeing the family through what it has gone through. Troy dying. I had the experience that I had with Mama and Daddy. I got to show the family me as caretaker. I'm there for you. I don't have to be in your face. Seeing all my brothers go through their divorces. Then Therman comes back. I can't tell you what load is off of my shoulders with him back and enthuasitcally taking on the role of big brother and male head of the family. His absence... knowing he was not dead made me made me mad. Throwing his responsibilities all the way down to me. I'm sitting here worrying about my last days and then to take on those responsibilities.
On Don's comment about how we lined up at the church. Yes, I responded voraciously to him. But it was in respect of this. He and Val had just come into town the day before the wedding and all of a sudden he's talking about, "How come we're out of order?" Trying to get everybody in the same room to decide how we were going to do this... Then he says that. No, you just don't have a say right now. I wasn't trying to question his idea, I was just...you just got here. Just go along with it. No matter which way you look at it, somebody was going to be out of order. Yeah, I could have said it nicely but...
Don accepted my homosexuality and he found religion sometime thereafter. Like every person they become a little overzealous. He was trying to save me and Bubba and wanted us to accept Jesus like he had. I was like, "How do you know we don't already have Him?" 'Cause we didn't live like he lived. Since our adulthood he's always challenged me. I don't know what it is.
Me with Willie Brown 6-30-09
I say it all the time. Oh the gifted folks I know! Just art and mo art throughout my circle. I met Willie Brown and Woody while I was booking comedians for G Mac's Comedy Show almost twelve years ago at the Hollywood Park Casino in Inglewood, California. When Willie showed up, Greg Dalton (G Mac) would always say after the show how great it was to be able to put up such great, rare talent. Almost weekly you could see Katt Williams, Mike Epps, Rodney Perry and to present a ventriloquist in the middle of all that talent to a crowd of people who had never seen such an act and may never again, was...a rainbow. Like how a rainbow appears with all this color from seemingly nowhere? Willie was like that and always very professional. At 6'5" and elegantly dressed with suitcase in hand (Woody's home), he managed to enter the room with a quiet, warm presence. But once he got on stage, pulled Woody out and brought him to life, it was on! The folks, our folks, young and old hip-hoppers, folks they say don't appreciate something different, were mesmerized!
Time has blessed me to call Willie Brown, friend. There is so much to his story that you will never read about or see in an interview. I am honored to hear his stories outside of the resume. These stories, these background stories are the mat holding the puzzle while it's being worked. I am also honored that he allowed me to share this with you.
J* Tell me again about when you were a teenager and took that trip to the convention.
W* I found out about a national ventriloquists convention that took place in Fort Mitchell, Kentucky right outside of Cincinnati, Ohio. It was sponsored by the Vent. Haven Museum, the North American Association of Ventriloquists, also known as NAAV. After I found about it I knew I wanted to attend it. I saved my money from my odd jobs, raking leaves and whatever I could to make some extra cash.
J* How old were you?
W* Fifteen.
J* So you flew by yourself?
W* Yeah. I saved my money and registered for the four day convention. They had seminars and shows featuring ventriloquists, some nationally known others novices.
J* How much money?
W* I can't remember how much, but I paid for a round trip plane ticket from Hartford, Connecticut to Cincinnati, Ohio, plus ground transportation to and from the hotel, plus all four days at the hotel and I had to buy food. And I had the money! I had the money to do whatever I needed to do.
J* Just from cuttin' grass and stuff?
W* Yeah. Cuttin' grass, working for my aunt doing some data entry stuff, whatever I could get my hands on, all legal of course.
J* Of course.
W* But while I was there I met some of the greats.
J* How did you know they were greats?
W* Because I knew my history as a ventriloquist. There was a great ventriloquist named Jimmy Nelson and Danny O'Day (character). He was big in vaudeville and he had a famous puppet named Farfel (a dog) who used to do the nestle commercial. (Imitates Jimmy Nelson and Farfel, singing in dog's voice) N-E-S-T-L-E-S Nestle makes the very best choooocoooolate. And then his mouth would close real hard. (Laughs)
I also met a young Jeff Dunham. He was good even back then. Along with Colonel Bill Boley and Clinton Detweiler, the owner of Maher Vent. Studios. He helped me a lot.
J* How?
W* He was very instrumental in helping me train through a correspondence course that I took by mail. He would grade my test and listen to my voice over cassette tape and let me know how I was progressing. I also met a man who would later become a mentor to me, one of the greatest African American ventriloquists, Willie Tyler and Lester. He was mostly known for his tour on the Motown review where he worked alongside The Temptations, Diana Ross, Marvin Gaye and many other very talented groups from the Motown stable.
J* I'm interested in how you knew you wanted to do this?
W* I was fortunate in that I was able to catch two annual ventriloquist specials that were on HBO. The first one was called The Vent Event. That was taped at the Mayfair Theatre in Los Angeles, California.
J* Is that still going on?
W* No. That was just that time. It featured some of the most popular ventriloquists at that time. Even the great Edgar Bergen, Candice Bergen's father and Charlie McCarthy, Jimmy Nelson, Daniel Day, Jay Johnson from the hit sitcom, Soap, along with Shari Lewis and Lambchop.
J* Lambchop is the puppet?
W* Yeah, the sock puppet, remember? She had her own TV show for years. And there was Stew Scott, he had a Los Vegas show. He died. Jim Teter with his presidential puppets. Willie Tyler was on it doing his famous hambone routine which I borrowed for a number of years, I didn't know any better.
J* You just stumbled on this show or were you interested before that?
W* Before that. I had already finished the course by then. I was exposed to ventriloquism through my childhood, through Paul Winchell. He had a television show and had his characters Jerry Mahoney and Knucklehead Smith. I remember being very enthralled at that show as a kid.
J* How old were you?
W* I was a little kid. Maybe four. I didn't see another ventriloquist until I saw Jay Johnson from the TV show, Soap. Remember that show? With Robert Guillaume (Benson). That show ignited the distant show Winchell and Mahoney. I think it was called Winchell and Mahoney? I immediately fell in love with it, combined with my love for magic. Which is my first love.
I already had the discipline to be a ventriloquist from magic. Being in front of the mirror so long practicing.
I told my mother, "I wanna be a ventriloquist." She said, "You wanna do everything." I told her, "I want a dummy." She bought me a dummy for Christmas. It's name was Willie Talk. I think it was made by Hasbro. It came with a little book on how to throw your voice. I just did what it told me to do. So I already had a voice for my first character, Woody. I called it Woody 'cause dummies are made of wood. I didn't know any better. Then I went on BET's Comic View and D L Hugley was the host. That was in '92. I was branded after that. Three years later I did Russell Simmons' Def Comedy Jam. Those two shows put me on the map nationally. It increased my shows nationally and internationally. I went to all of the major cities playing comedy shows like, All Jokes Aside in Chicago, Illinois, The Laugh House in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, The Improv in Miami and others.
J* What about in college?
W* I performed as a hobby and also at sorority and fraternity functions and off campus at officer's clubs and nightclubs.
J* Are you trippin' sometimes? Like in the middle of the night sometimes do you stare at the ceiling like wow, I'm still doing this?
W* I'm very blessed. I have a cousin who is a pilot and another who is a physical therapist, another who is heavily into computers, another excelled in the military. I always felt like they made it and I was still trying to get there. Like in show business you can't just say, "Well, I'm a doctor now". In show business there is no test. Although you are tested! And now I see myself still evolving and it's not what I thought it was when I used to watch the Mike Douglas Show.
J* What did you think it was going to be like?
W* I thought that once you did Merv Griffin or Mike Douglas, I'm dating myself now. Some people don't even know what those shows are, but once you did those shows, you made it.
I've worked with some great entertainers. When I worked with Gladys Knight my name was on the marquis at the Tropicana. There was another time I was at the Tropicana and I didn't have such a great show. The show was called Comedy Stop at the Trop. I felt jinxed by the manager. Whenever he was there I was sub par, but when he wasn't there I killed. If only he could have seen it. He moved me from the headliner spot to the middle spot after the first night. But he kept my money the same. It hurt my ego. I had to really study that crowd. It was a mixture of old Italians, Jewish, north eastern crowds. Whenever we did connect, it was great.
What was so great was that I got to go back to the Tropicana to open for Gladys and The Temptations, which was an even bigger venue than the Comedy Stop at the Trop. It was a bigger room.
J* Did you go by and see the manager? Was he still there?
W* Yeah he was there. I didn't go see him. He wasn't good for my energy. I no longer go to places that don't serve me, I need to get something out of it. It could be a comedy club, an AA meeting, a church. It has to mean something to me.
J* Tell me about Clean Comedy Clinic.
W* While I was in L.A., I came across comedians who were doing comedy at churches and I got ushered into cleaning up my act and doing more Christian venues. God gave me a gift to perform for all people. I began working with Clean Comedians, an agency in Los Angeles and also Outreach another agency out of Vista, California. From there I began a crusade to bring comedy to the world. Clean, funny, gut busting comedy to the world. As a healing instrument. I call myself a laugh doctor.
So I did end up getting my doctorate after all. Didn't I?
Time has blessed me to call Willie Brown, friend. There is so much to his story that you will never read about or see in an interview. I am honored to hear his stories outside of the resume. These stories, these background stories are the mat holding the puzzle while it's being worked. I am also honored that he allowed me to share this with you.
J* Tell me again about when you were a teenager and took that trip to the convention.
W* I found out about a national ventriloquists convention that took place in Fort Mitchell, Kentucky right outside of Cincinnati, Ohio. It was sponsored by the Vent. Haven Museum, the North American Association of Ventriloquists, also known as NAAV. After I found about it I knew I wanted to attend it. I saved my money from my odd jobs, raking leaves and whatever I could to make some extra cash.
J* How old were you?
W* Fifteen.
J* So you flew by yourself?
W* Yeah. I saved my money and registered for the four day convention. They had seminars and shows featuring ventriloquists, some nationally known others novices.
J* How much money?
W* I can't remember how much, but I paid for a round trip plane ticket from Hartford, Connecticut to Cincinnati, Ohio, plus ground transportation to and from the hotel, plus all four days at the hotel and I had to buy food. And I had the money! I had the money to do whatever I needed to do.
J* Just from cuttin' grass and stuff?
W* Yeah. Cuttin' grass, working for my aunt doing some data entry stuff, whatever I could get my hands on, all legal of course.
J* Of course.
W* But while I was there I met some of the greats.
J* How did you know they were greats?
W* Because I knew my history as a ventriloquist. There was a great ventriloquist named Jimmy Nelson and Danny O'Day (character). He was big in vaudeville and he had a famous puppet named Farfel (a dog) who used to do the nestle commercial. (Imitates Jimmy Nelson and Farfel, singing in dog's voice) N-E-S-T-L-E-S Nestle makes the very best choooocoooolate. And then his mouth would close real hard. (Laughs)
I also met a young Jeff Dunham. He was good even back then. Along with Colonel Bill Boley and Clinton Detweiler, the owner of Maher Vent. Studios. He helped me a lot.
J* How?
W* He was very instrumental in helping me train through a correspondence course that I took by mail. He would grade my test and listen to my voice over cassette tape and let me know how I was progressing. I also met a man who would later become a mentor to me, one of the greatest African American ventriloquists, Willie Tyler and Lester. He was mostly known for his tour on the Motown review where he worked alongside The Temptations, Diana Ross, Marvin Gaye and many other very talented groups from the Motown stable.
J* I'm interested in how you knew you wanted to do this?
W* I was fortunate in that I was able to catch two annual ventriloquist specials that were on HBO. The first one was called The Vent Event. That was taped at the Mayfair Theatre in Los Angeles, California.
J* Is that still going on?
W* No. That was just that time. It featured some of the most popular ventriloquists at that time. Even the great Edgar Bergen, Candice Bergen's father and Charlie McCarthy, Jimmy Nelson, Daniel Day, Jay Johnson from the hit sitcom, Soap, along with Shari Lewis and Lambchop.
J* Lambchop is the puppet?
W* Yeah, the sock puppet, remember? She had her own TV show for years. And there was Stew Scott, he had a Los Vegas show. He died. Jim Teter with his presidential puppets. Willie Tyler was on it doing his famous hambone routine which I borrowed for a number of years, I didn't know any better.
J* You just stumbled on this show or were you interested before that?
W* Before that. I had already finished the course by then. I was exposed to ventriloquism through my childhood, through Paul Winchell. He had a television show and had his characters Jerry Mahoney and Knucklehead Smith. I remember being very enthralled at that show as a kid.
J* How old were you?
W* I was a little kid. Maybe four. I didn't see another ventriloquist until I saw Jay Johnson from the TV show, Soap. Remember that show? With Robert Guillaume (Benson). That show ignited the distant show Winchell and Mahoney. I think it was called Winchell and Mahoney? I immediately fell in love with it, combined with my love for magic. Which is my first love.
I already had the discipline to be a ventriloquist from magic. Being in front of the mirror so long practicing.
I told my mother, "I wanna be a ventriloquist." She said, "You wanna do everything." I told her, "I want a dummy." She bought me a dummy for Christmas. It's name was Willie Talk. I think it was made by Hasbro. It came with a little book on how to throw your voice. I just did what it told me to do. So I already had a voice for my first character, Woody. I called it Woody 'cause dummies are made of wood. I didn't know any better. Then I went on BET's Comic View and D L Hugley was the host. That was in '92. I was branded after that. Three years later I did Russell Simmons' Def Comedy Jam. Those two shows put me on the map nationally. It increased my shows nationally and internationally. I went to all of the major cities playing comedy shows like, All Jokes Aside in Chicago, Illinois, The Laugh House in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, The Improv in Miami and others.
J* What about in college?
W* I performed as a hobby and also at sorority and fraternity functions and off campus at officer's clubs and nightclubs.
J* Are you trippin' sometimes? Like in the middle of the night sometimes do you stare at the ceiling like wow, I'm still doing this?
W* I'm very blessed. I have a cousin who is a pilot and another who is a physical therapist, another who is heavily into computers, another excelled in the military. I always felt like they made it and I was still trying to get there. Like in show business you can't just say, "Well, I'm a doctor now". In show business there is no test. Although you are tested! And now I see myself still evolving and it's not what I thought it was when I used to watch the Mike Douglas Show.
J* What did you think it was going to be like?
W* I thought that once you did Merv Griffin or Mike Douglas, I'm dating myself now. Some people don't even know what those shows are, but once you did those shows, you made it.
I've worked with some great entertainers. When I worked with Gladys Knight my name was on the marquis at the Tropicana. There was another time I was at the Tropicana and I didn't have such a great show. The show was called Comedy Stop at the Trop. I felt jinxed by the manager. Whenever he was there I was sub par, but when he wasn't there I killed. If only he could have seen it. He moved me from the headliner spot to the middle spot after the first night. But he kept my money the same. It hurt my ego. I had to really study that crowd. It was a mixture of old Italians, Jewish, north eastern crowds. Whenever we did connect, it was great.
What was so great was that I got to go back to the Tropicana to open for Gladys and The Temptations, which was an even bigger venue than the Comedy Stop at the Trop. It was a bigger room.
J* Did you go by and see the manager? Was he still there?
W* Yeah he was there. I didn't go see him. He wasn't good for my energy. I no longer go to places that don't serve me, I need to get something out of it. It could be a comedy club, an AA meeting, a church. It has to mean something to me.
J* Tell me about Clean Comedy Clinic.
W* While I was in L.A., I came across comedians who were doing comedy at churches and I got ushered into cleaning up my act and doing more Christian venues. God gave me a gift to perform for all people. I began working with Clean Comedians, an agency in Los Angeles and also Outreach another agency out of Vista, California. From there I began a crusade to bring comedy to the world. Clean, funny, gut busting comedy to the world. As a healing instrument. I call myself a laugh doctor.
So I did end up getting my doctorate after all. Didn't I?
Me with Janice 7-14-09
Janice and Therman are leaving today and as much as I know that continuing their journey is important and exciting to them, I don't want them to go.
Janice* My interview won't be a surprise to anybody 'cause I'm always sayin' stuff.
Jaha* They're not interviews. They're conversations.
Janice* They're just gonna say, "I know what she's talking about, herself." They're probably right. I'm gonna write the story of my life one day though.
Jaha* What's next?
Janice* That's a question?
Jaha* Umm hum.
Janice* (Pause) I'm not sure. Really. I'm not sure. This is the most peaceful I've been maybe in my life. At the beginning of the year when I realized I was turning fifty, I decided, "You know what? The next fifty years is not going to be like the first fifty. It has to be better and stronger and brighter. It just has to be." After that I was talking to Therman about the train ride.
Jaha* In January?
Janice* This was before January. About two years before then. But in January, when Therman returned and we stared talking, I said I wanted to just move away and be gone. But I knew in my heart that I wasn't ready for that. But I knew I wanted to be away this summer. I didn't know where. I didn't want to drive 'cause I'm already sick of driving a long way to work. A cruise wasn't gonna do it 'cause the longest you cruise is what, two weeks?
Then I was on the phone with Therman and he mentioned that he was gonna take a train ride with his grandson. Then my mind shouted, that's it! A train! No sooner than I thought that in my head, Therman said, "You should come." I said, "Where to?" And he said, "Wherever, just get on a train and go." I decided I wouldn't take anything related to work. Just books that I wanted to read.
This has been the most liberating that I have felt in my entire life. That's why, when you say, "Whats next?" I don't know. I don't wanna make up anything unless it's what God wants me to do.
I could not have this conversation with you without talking about Landmark.
Jaha* When did you do the Forum?
Janice* The weekend of the 19th.
Jaha* In June?
Janice* Yep. Just before I came out here. I heard from you how much I could get out of it. I knew it was going to be something intense. I was still in that frame of mind like, there has to be a shift in the way I'm living.
I was at home straightening up or something. I was talking to a friend of mine, Tim and he mentioned Landmark and I wondered if that's what you were talking about. Then I said, "I'm gonna do Landmark." This is before the whole train ride talk and everything. Anyway, it was confirmation that it was time to do that.
(We laugh at my friend's dog, Little Mama, trying to fall asleep. I'm never giving her back.)
Anyway, I'm two weeks into my travel and I pushed my train plans back a week because I wanted to do the integrity seminar and you have to be there the first night. It's been transforming. Literally.
Jaha* I wanna talk about the one woman show.
Janice* I said to myself that after I came off of this summers journey, that I would be ready. But rather than worry myself about it, I just think about whatever my mind thinks about and not force anything.
(Pause)
Jaha* What's Deon's daughter's name?
Janice* Daughter? Brooke is the wife, right? I almost wanna say Imani. Is that it?
Jaha* I don't know. I ask because I think about her. Like that's kinda who the blog is for. Our family we may never know.
Janice* Oh, I'm gonna know her. I'm gonna kiss her and hug her.
I know what I wanna do. People might think it's crazy.
Jaha* What?
Janice* I wanna marry myself.
What I wanna do is have a ceremony, October 23, with people standing with me that I know understand and believe in what I'm trying to do, why I'm trying to do it and then after that, have a party. I want to sing and make some commitments to myself out loud and have some people hold me accountable. I keep telling myself that people are gonna say, "What is she doing?" I keep trying to figure out how to tell people.
Jaha* You could say it just like that 'cause people who really understand you...
Janice* Yeah. I don't wanna be concerned about what people think about what I'm doing or not doing anymore. And this didn't start this summer. I've been trying to get to this place since Mama died. That was in '97 and it's 2009 now. The Forum is what God gave me to help me get back to that pure empty place within myself. I feel real good right here.
I wanna clean up facebook. I wanna create a questionnaire and set a deadline and whoever doesn't answer the questions, I'm deleting them. I don't wanna have facebook of a hundred friends...I'm just deleting them.
Two things I know for sure, God saved me and He set me up with this teaching position. It fit! I'm on nine months and off three. But if I could quit working, then my focus would be on holistic medicine. A practitioner of herbs, wholesome foods, exercise. Get into meditation and yoga, which is supposed to be bad.
Jaha* Meditation and yoga?
Janice* Some people feel like you're opening yourself up to...other things. So, not bad, but like...
Jaha* Like Harry Potter.
Janice* Like Harry Potter.
Before, I would not have known how to know someone who was a Buddhist or something else. But I'm done with that. I know what I believe and I am grounded and nothing can take me away from what I believe. No person, no nothing. I am confident in my relationship with Jesus Christ. If I don't have anything, I am confident in that.
Nobody can tell me I can't worship. That's just me and God and I am most comfortable there. I do worship.
Jaha* Like you will make eggs for us and say, "Maybe I didn't put in enough salt." Or sing and wonder about a note, but worship...
Janice* I don't wonder. I know I worship. Whenever I'm out of sinx and feel myself slipping into sadness or depression, I know how to get before God and get my balance back.
You used to tell me, "You don't have to have things to do, just be you." That's what I get. I don't have to have a whole lotta stuff created, cards, website...I just wanna sing. I wanna share me. I wanna do it with acting, or whatever, be it a monologue or whatever. I wanna commit to honor the gifts that God has given me. Thus my blog page. (www.janicelivingoutloud.blogspot.com) I don't wanna be silent about what I wanna do because so and so might not think that's what I should be doing.
I know the more I talk about it out loud, I am more convinced that I have just played this superficial role. I was doing church so much. Playing this role to keep their approval.
Jaha* Been there.
Janice* I'm just not doing that anymore.
Jaha* What's the song for you that gets you in that praise and worship mood?
Janice* I sing all the time. I wake up singing. I don't know that I have a particular song. For me, my worship is singing to God and so I don't know that I have a particular song. I am more about lyrics though. I do much better with songs that I can actually talk if I weren't singing them.
I want that to be a job. But the job that pays the money is what I do first. There's a lot of paperwork that comes in addition to teaching. Like preparing lesson plans. I'm working all the time. If I could create a life for myself, it would be doing holistic health. Even my friend, Danielle, she teaches health, which is what she is about. So it's like second nature to her. I could write music if I had the time to. I could create characters for my one woman show if I had the time to do that. People say, "Man, you see how tight Janet Jackson's body is?" I'm like, yeah, I could have my body that tight too if I had the time to spend eight hours a day in a gym.
At some point in my life, I don't know when it was, but I laid me down and I picked up this life that I thought would be easier or more acceptable. I see myself at St. Mark Baptist Church, in the back, where the ushers sit. I see my self looking toward the pulpit and metaphorically I turn to lay it down on the bench behind me. It's symbolic of this vision that I have. I laid it down. The vision. Acting. Someone must have said something to me about using my gifts for the world. And someone said something that made me lay it down. And it's been hard to get back there. And I don't know if I will. But I do know I'm gonna be the only one dictating.
I sit and watch Janice speak and I think, "Wow, if I had half the talent she has..." To me, Janice is one of those women most women say that about. What I want for the world is for them to hear her voice. It's like water. Clean, fresh. She sounds like an angel. And she does sing all the time. While riding in the car with her and she starts humming you quiet down just to catch it. The hum. Her hum.
Janice and I talk some more about freedom and I listen to her describe "freedom" and to me she is only describing the Janice I've always known. "Janice will say it." "Janice will do it." "Janice would go there."
But these are the limitations of "freedom" that I give to her. And who am I? Who are any of us to declare any other of us anything? So, Janice, GO! Create your world of freedom. YOUR freedom.
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